Jump to content

[TOPIC: topicViewTemplate]
[GLOBAL: userSmallPhoto]
Photo

From The Blog: Corona Labs annual update
Started by CoronaBot Feb 12 2020 02:58 PM

326 replies to this topic
[TOPIC CONTROLS]
Page 3 of 14 1 2 3 4 5 »
[/TOPIC CONTROLS]
[modOptionsDropdown]
[/modOptionsDropdown]
[reputationFilter]
[TOPIC: post.html]
#51

Edissey

[GLOBAL: userInfoPane.html]
Edissey
  • Enthusiast

  • 54 posts
  • Corona SDK

I'd love to stay with Corona, having used it since 2010 and just about to re-release an app and build a follow up on my same platform. But, if I have to move it's looking more and more like Unity 3D might be the way to go for the following reasons:

1. Stable company

2. Diverse platform support

3. Large developer community

4. Standard programming language (C#), not a proprietary language

5. Reasonable cost

I'm not so concerned about it being overkill.

 

Please feel to chime in with your opinions. I think we all need to at last consider all our options.



[TOPIC: post.html]
#52

XeduR @Spyric

[GLOBAL: userInfoPane.html]
XeduR @Spyric
  • Corona Geek

  • 1,248 posts
  • Corona SDK

@Richard, I agree that update notifications is one of the great benefits of having a single centralised store. But there still remains the matter that if the new store wouldn't be profitable, or profitable enough, then like with Corona Labs, QWeb would close it down, at which point the third party plugins and assets would again be without a home, like they soon will be. By using the catalog approach, there only way that the asset/plugin catalog would be lost again would be if the main Corona site would be closed.

 

The profits from asset/plugin sales would come back to their developers, i.e. part of the community any way. The matter of how much they'd be willing to invest in the core development would be a different matter with both approaches. I would argue that marketing budget is out of the question these days.


  • agramonte likes this

[TOPIC: post.html]
#53

sporkfin

[GLOBAL: userInfoPane.html]
sporkfin
  • Contributor

  • 810 posts
  • Corona SDK

I'm not throwing in the towel yet!  I was thrilled to hear that Vlad wants to continue working on the platform and I believe there are enough of us to get a good start on Patreon.  I've been experimenting with other game engines this past year but really prefer Corona.  I'm excited to move forward despite the challenges but, as they say in Monty Python, "We're not dead yet!".


  • Quantumwave, RustySly, Kevin H and 1 other like this

[TOPIC: post.html]
#54

richard11

[GLOBAL: userInfoPane.html]
richard11
  • Contributor

  • 552 posts
  • Corona SDK

Fair point ref individual developers giving back some of their earnings from plugin sales. I hadn't considered that myself to be honest. I suppose how much would be a feasible return would be subject to how much commission the sales platform takes, but every little helps.

Ref QWeb closing down the replacement store if it isn't successful - I can't imagine that being a possibility really. We're already paying for our servers etc, so the additional costs for running the store are marginal. It's the development time that will be the most costly aspect, and by the time we launch, that'd be mostly done with. Hence needing to build a picture of how much interest there would be in this before diving in.

[TOPIC: post.html]
#55

d.mach

[GLOBAL: userInfoPane.html]
d.mach
  • Contributor

  • 971 posts
  • Corona SDK

I also hope CORONA will live on. As long as it is alive and you can build for Android and iOS I will use and support it.

The only thing it should have is admob integration and working IAPs for the stores ;)

 

Is anybody have some details about this METAL requirement by Apple? Is it a fact iOS14 will be such a huge game changer?

And if so... is it even possible for Corona (and willing/able devs) to deliver such a drastic change?



[TOPIC: post.html]
#56

kbradford

[GLOBAL: userInfoPane.html]
kbradford
  • Contributor

  • 279 posts
  • Corona SDK

Is anybody have some details about this METAL requirement by Apple? Is it a fact iOS14 will be such a huge game changer?
And if so... is it even possible for Corona (and willing/able devs) to deliver such a drastic change?

No one knows yet, and we won’t until June when iOS 14 beta comes out. Worst case is OpenGL is removed, and since it’s been deprecated 2 years now it’s possible. That would give vlad about 3 months to transition over before iOS 14 would launch in September. I think it’s possible but would be a pretty heroic feat. Hopefully he can get started earlier. And ideally it doesn’t get removed until iOS 15 and we have lots of time to move off OpenGL.

Having the resources to move off OpenGL is by far the biggest threat to Corona surviving so hopefully is next in line after moving everything off the build servers.

[TOPIC: post.html]
#57

firerabbit.info

[GLOBAL: userInfoPane.html]
firerabbit.info
  • Contributor

  • 193 posts
  • Corona SDK

I keep thinking that with so much support from so many active users, Corona can't die, surely. I don't know the usage figures or the numbers of people who would fall into the "yes I would definitely pay a subscription fee" camp, but surely someone, somewhere, must see an opportunity to take this on as a genuine business opportunity through charging for the software.

 

Lower fees / a free version for casual users, students etc. and higher fees for those of us making a living from our Corona apps doesn't seem like a crazy idea does it...? Sadly we don't have the expertise ourselves, but would gladly contribute financially if there were any guarantees made around ensuring support for future Apple / Android updates.

 

The way everyone is talking though, it seems like a lot of folks have either already looked elsewhere or are doing so at this stage.

 

So I guess the next question I have is recommendations for alternatives.

 

Unity looks like a fantastic option in many ways, especially in terms of not ending up in this kind of situation again, but for reasonably straightforward 2D games, is that like using a sledgehammer to crack a nut? Fine with the cost if it guarantees long term support but learning curve? We have 20 years of programming experience so not phased by working with other languages, but preference would be for an easier port of existing code / shallower learning curve if possible.

 

After that it gets more difficult to find an obvious choice that has the long term guarantee of being viable in 3 or 4 years.

  • Godot is one option I've seen mentioned and looks to have an impressive array of features.
  • Game Maker Studio mentioned by Fire Rabbit
  • Construct keeps popping up

There are tonnes of options. If anyone has any strong views on what might be worth looking into as a priority that would be a great help.

 

Deal breakers for us are a good 2d graphics engine, network capabilities for sending / receiving data from a remote server, sqlite support, security and a decent audio library including recording via the microphone. Ability to publish for iOS and Android essential. Other platforms a bonus.

 

One thing that would make big difference for us is understanding whether an update made in another SDK to an existing app made in Corona would be able to tap into the sqlite database already stored in the documents directory by our Corona app so as to maintain progress made within the app so far. Anyone see any potential issues with that? The answer to that I imagine would be helpful to lots of us using sqlite to store game data.

 

Thanks.

 

For those looking for the most direct 2D conversion, I'd recommend Game Make Studio.  Game Maker Studio is very 2D focused and has a scripting language that is comparable to Lua/Corona.  They also have a healthy, large, and helpful community. There are tonnes of tutorials online for doing nearly anything.  We strongly considered it before choosing Unity, but we have 3D ambitions and have the programming backgrounds to take on the complexity and challenges of Unity. Unity is not for everyone.

 

Game Maker Studio was also the platform for some mega indie hits.  Anyone play these?

 

  • Undertale: 2.5 million steam owners. ...
  • Hotline Miami: 2.2 million steam owners. ...
  • Risk of Rain: 1.5 million steam owners. ...
  • Gunpoint: 800k steam owners. ...
  • Nidhogg: 670K steam owners. ...
  • Nuclear Throne: 500K steam owners. ...
  • Hyper Light Drifter: 400K steam owners.

 

Godot I hear is good, open source, and sometimes brought up as an alternative to Unity.  They were a bit too young for us to consider.  I've heard mixed things but I wouldn't say Godot is as easy to use as Corona or Game Maker Studio is.  Construct I never heard of, thanks for sharing.  All of these alternatives are cross platform.



[TOPIC: post.html]
#58

Gil44liG

[GLOBAL: userInfoPane.html]
Gil44liG
  • Observer

  • 12 posts
  • Corona SDK

No real reasons to switch from Corona as of now, so I'm staying. :) 

 

Unity is just an awful mess to me, and UE4 is pretty meh when it comes to 2D, so if I were to switch to something with an editor despite hating those, I'd go for Game Maker Studio 2. It was the least revolting to me out of the three after some basic tinkering.

 

Stuff like LÖVE and MonoGame is also neat due to the overall workflow being a lot more like Corona's, so those would be most likely replacements for me.


  • horacebury likes this

[TOPIC: post.html]
#59

XeduR @Spyric

[GLOBAL: userInfoPane.html]
XeduR @Spyric
  • Corona Geek

  • 1,248 posts
  • Corona SDK

kbradford is right in that the OpenGL question is a complete mystery. Even though Apple already deprecated it a long time ago, but there's no knowing how long it may still work. It could still be hanging around for the next 3 years or we'll learn that it'll stop working come September.

 

It really just comes down to how many apps are still using OpenGL. When Apple decides to completely stop supporting OpenGL, it means that all App Store apps using it would be removed. As long as that number remains high enough, Apple won't have the incentive to do so. This is purely a guess, but I would wager we still have until September of 2021. Still, the sooner this is addressed, the better.

 

But, one thing that I believe most of us would agree on is that we'd like to hear from Vlad (and other Corona engineers, if there are any,) and hear of their plans and whether or not they'd be interested in a Patreon arrangement or something along those lines.



[TOPIC: post.html]
#60

runewinse

[GLOBAL: userInfoPane.html]
runewinse
  • Contributor

  • 513 posts
  • Corona SDK

What kind of apps have you developed using Corona?  Mine are mostly business apps and the most logical engine would be Flutter.

 

It's a few less popular ones. The most used is a "glossary" app for learning a foreign language words with a "game" in different levels, mainly for kids. You can register and save your own lists of words to the cloud etc, but it can also be used without registering.

 

The teacher can create lists and a QR code (that is included in the "week plan") and that the kids can scan to start a game. Seems to be popular in Norway where I live.

 

So it's a mix of game (2D engine is used a lot)  and a "business app" (in the sense that there are some text input and list of saved games that can be downloaded etc).

 

So I need:

- 2D gfx engine

- QR reading capability

- Text speech capability



[TOPIC: post.html]
#61

akao

[GLOBAL: userInfoPane.html]
akao
  • Contributor

  • 395 posts
  • Corona SDK

I think the best outcome would be if some Corona developers or someone skilled in Corona can take it on, maybe even keep the current server-based build system, but charge a subscription of some sort for developers that are making a living from Corona right now. I think those are the developers who have a bit more resource, and more stake as well..

 

As for alternatives, we, like others, have taken a look. We feel that Unity 3D is super heavy for 2D gaming and MUCH more time consuming to work with. We haven't used Game Maker Studio, but (not to pour water on some other plaftorm), some of the the donwload numbers that @fireabbit mentioned are (while big for steam), rather modest for mobile F2P games. 

 

Also, moving to any other platform means a complete rebuild and retooling, when we really need to be working on new games/features. So, just not very viable for us. We prefer to figure out a way to make Corona stable & usable for as long as possible. 



[TOPIC: post.html]
#62

SGS

[GLOBAL: userInfoPane.html]
SGS
  • Corona Geek

  • 2,219 posts
  • Corona SDK

The problem I see is I assume, like me, you are all paying for splash screen and at least one ad network.  So if they cannot continue on at least $300 per active dev I do not see this as a viable solution moving forward.

 

Sure, removing the server costs may help but I doubt 100 devs spending $300 a year will keep the platform afloat.  After all that's only $30k a year and hardly enough to cover vlad continuing full time. 


  • Falcon777 and agramonte like this

[TOPIC: post.html]
#63

Falcon777

[GLOBAL: userInfoPane.html]
Falcon777
  • Contributor

  • 440 posts
  • Corona SDK

The problem I see is I assume, like me, you are all paying for splash screen and at least one ad network.  So if they cannot continue on at least $300 per active dev I do not see this as a viable solution moving forward.

 

Sure, removing the server costs may help but I doubt 100 devs spending $300 a year will keep the platform afloat.  After all that's only $30k a year and hardly enough to cover vlad continuing full time. 

 

This is a valid point. I believe some of us who are willing to continue to pay are doing so to maintain existing apps as long they are profitable enough. However, creating brand new apps is too much of a risk.



[TOPIC: post.html]
#64

ray6

[GLOBAL: userInfoPane.html]
ray6
  • Observer

  • 13 posts
  • Corona SDK

@Rob appears to be the most visible(?) Corona person here, but I want to say thanks to Rob, the rest of Corona Labs, and all the rest of the dedicated volunteers for making the Corona tool suite, the documentation, and the forums, so top-notch. I know there are alternatives to Corona out there, but it's going to be tough finding one that can measure up.

 

I saw this happen to GarageGames and the Torque Game Engine many years ago. I hope that Corona the technology remains more viable than Torque.


  • horacebury likes this

[TOPIC: post.html]
#65

mistajase

[GLOBAL: userInfoPane.html]
mistajase
  • Observer

  • 3 posts
  • Corona SDK

I've also wondered what was going on behind the scenes, even though this isn't the news we wanted at least we have some clarity.

I'm only a casual hobbist game dev (but have 10 years professional web development experience and have numberous business apps (non-corona) in play/appstore) - i'm currently working on a big gaming project using Corona in my own time so I won't be going anywhere (for time being at least) and I'll support Corona where I can and would help contribute via patreon for ongoing updates.

Moving to serverless builds is a good thing - I use ionic and cordova for building/compiling apps via command line anyway - which works fine - the majority of plugins are thirdparty/community based which are regularly updated by various authors who usually update their plugins to keep inline with framework updates... I can't see why Corona can't be any different.

- the only issue for Corona is keeping up-to-date with the latest appstore/playstore changes... and 100% needs someone to take control of the source code and help push things forward, this will ensure its future.

But like I said - i'm not ready to abandon Corona yet and I'm happy to ride the wave of uncertainty for now - Corona seems to have a lot of fans, I dont think it's going to disappear just yet, just undergoing some radical changes!
  • Michael Flad and Gil44liG like this

[TOPIC: post.html]
#66

chris_raz

[GLOBAL: userInfoPane.html]
chris_raz
  • Contributor

  • 247 posts
  • Corona SDK

Wow, been here for over 10 years and am stumped on what to say. Have pretty much built a successful business on coronalabs and am forever grateful to the product! Thank you @rob and @vlads for your amazing and hard work. All good things come to an end... we have been using unity more and more lately but would love to continue also using corona and hopefully it can sustain a while longer open source. Count me in on financial support via patreon or whatever means we have going forward.
  • horacebury and joecoronasdk like this

[TOPIC: post.html]
#67

joecoronasdk

[GLOBAL: userInfoPane.html]
joecoronasdk
  • Observer

  • 28 posts
  • Corona SDK

This really sucks. I initially thought it would be a good thing because I've been wanting offline builds for so long, but I don't know if the community is big enough to support Corona. Maybe if Corona went opensource years ago it would have been saved, but I'm really skeptical that we can save it at THIS point.

 

This is a really big hit to me personally. I moved to Corona from Adobe's Flash back in highschool...so I'm getting Flashbacks (haha, get it?). I also have 3 new projects being built in Corona. I've going to opensource a bunch of my private helper code to help incentive the community to continue. I'll try to get those up on my GitHub this weekend.

 

Some of my private code includes:

 - an automatic screenshot generator. Supports automatically taking screenshots of your app in all resolutions and languages

 - material design-like buttons which hook into the widgets library

 - embeddable scrollviews

 

I'm also thinking that maybe http://phaser.io/ could be an alternative? Has anyone used it? I love having an explicitly 2d engine. Unity and Unreal engine (I've built games in Unity and help my brothers with Unreal) are so battery-intensive for 2d on mobile. 

 

Edit: Thanks to @rob and @vlads for helping with Corona so much! Your hard work allowed me to publish my games for phones in highschool and college :) The money I made from those actually entirely supported my study abroad experience, so you can say Corona really affected my life.


  • Michael Flad, horacebury, agramonte and 1 other like this

[TOPIC: post.html]
#68

mistajase

[GLOBAL: userInfoPane.html]
mistajase
  • Observer

  • 3 posts
  • Corona SDK

I'm also thinking that maybe http://phaser.io/ could be an alternative? Has anyone used it? I love having an explicitly 2d engine. Unity and Unreal engine (I've built games in Unity and help my brothers with Unreal) are so battery-intensive for 2d on mobile.


I've used phaser for prototyping a game for a football club, it's great for browser based html5 games and very easy to pickup - but it's not really geared for deployment to app stores, but you probably use Cordova to compile it
  • joecoronasdk likes this

[TOPIC: post.html]
#69

joecoronasdk

[GLOBAL: userInfoPane.html]
joecoronasdk
  • Observer

  • 28 posts
  • Corona SDK

I've used phaser for prototyping a game for a football club, it's great for browser based html5 games and very easy to pickup - but it's not really geared for deployment to app stores, but you probably use Cordova to compile it

 

Hmm. I've been working on a build-system of sorts for Corona would builds to HTML5, Android and iOS with a single CLI command. CLI is in Lua. It's also autodeploying Lua game servers with Nodejs and Luvit and setting up websockets automatically. Anyways, I'm trying to make the decision if I should pivot now to something like phaser or continue with Corona. Hard decision, because I'm really scared in 2 or 3 years time Corona will get dropped.

 

If a CLI tool like this interests the community, I can try to turn it into an open source effort.

 

I really think the only way Corona would survive into the far future is if the community sticks together.


  • sieler2 and agramonte like this

[TOPIC: post.html]
#70

Rob Miracle

[GLOBAL: userInfoPane.html]
Rob Miracle
  • Moderator

  • 26,681 posts
  • Enterprise

I'm so screwed... I'm too old to start over again with a completely new tool set and I don't know what can replace Corona SDK anyway...

 

Corona isn't going away. Corona Labs is. They are separate. Engineering efforts are going to continue on it. You're going to get serverless builds. You won't have to pay for the splash screen. Hopefully with the new OSS license, other developers who were turned off via the GPLv3 license will want to work on the engine.  

 

As the TL;DR said, you shouldn't see much of a change. You will get your builds from a different site. Not much more will change. 

 

Rob


  • Michael Flad, egruttner, sieler2 and 4 others like this

[TOPIC: post.html]
#71

Rob Miracle

[GLOBAL: userInfoPane.html]
Rob Miracle
  • Moderator

  • 26,681 posts
  • Enterprise

We are a long time Corona user as well. This is indeed sad news. I wish Rob, vlad, and everyone at Corona the best. I do wish some of the fine folks will continue to contribute to the SDK. We don't have the expertise to help, but can contribute financially. 

 

@Rob would you happen to know if Corona Cards would be in a good enough shape for folks to continue running Corona using another framework? (eg. Unity) I am assuming that won't solve the issue with migration to Metal? 

 

We plan to have CoronaCards be part of the package going forward. Given the most uncertainty that's being expressed is around Apple's unclear plans to deprecate OpenGL. So let's say, hypothetically Apple does. Vlad and community developer's can't make it happen (and I have full faith that we will address this OpenGL thing post Corona Labs). CoronaCards is still dependent on the Corona rendering engine. If the Corona Simulator isn't going to work, CoronaCards isn't going to work. Unity is no help here. And if you want to use Unity as a building tool and CoronaCards so that you don't have to convert your app, then you're going to have to subject yourself to a less than pleasant experience with Unity. My understanding of Unity building for Android/iOS you still have to use Android Studio/Xcode to make the builds any way, so why not just use Corona Native in that case?


  • Michael Flad, egruttner, agramonte and 1 other like this

[TOPIC: post.html]
#72

nick_sherman

[GLOBAL: userInfoPane.html]
nick_sherman
  • Corona Geek

  • 1,976 posts
  • Corona SDK

Corona isn't going away. Corona Labs is. They are separate. Engineering efforts are going to continue on it. You're going to get serverless builds. You won't have to pay for the splash screen. Hopefully with the new OSS license, other developers who were turned off via the GPLv3 license will want to work on the engine.  

 

As the TL;DR said, you shouldn't see much of a change. You will get your builds from a different site. Not much more will change. 

 

Rob

 

In the very short-term, perhaps, but you can't rely on 'hopefully' if you're running a business. One major change from apple or google after May and we're relying on someone with the time, talent and generosity to do the work necessary to ensure builds continue to work. 


  • davemikesell, SGS and joecoronasdk like this

[TOPIC: post.html]
#73

dooq

[GLOBAL: userInfoPane.html]
dooq
  • Enthusiast

  • 50 posts
  • Corona SDK

Thanks for all your great work here Rob, including during this transition. I guess people are worried that without any financial support, the engineering work will stop. Any further clarity you could give about this (or a statement from engineering lead) would be appreciated.

 

We're about to enter beta testing for our latest Corona game. At this point we're going to continue with Corona and see what happens. If we need to port to a different engine in the future, that will happen in the future. No need to jump ship right now. Relax, take a deep breath peeps. It's going to be OK.

 

Open source Corona could potentially have some good benefits going forward too. I would join Patreon support if it helped continue core engineering. 


  • horacebury, Gil44liG, sporkfin and 3 others like this

[TOPIC: post.html]
#74

XeduR @Spyric

[GLOBAL: userInfoPane.html]
XeduR @Spyric
  • Corona Geek

  • 1,248 posts
  • Corona SDK

When we are talking about open source game engines, the first ones that come to my mind are LÖVE, Cocos2d-x and Godot.

 

From what I've understood, Godot is practically thriving and it is being generously funded. Cocos2d-x is most likely doing well too and I think they just added metal support to it in December (wink, wink).I haven't heard of LÖVE in a while, but I imagine it isn't doing too poorly either.

 

Corona can absolutely survive and even thrive in the open source environment.


  • sporkfin and joecoronasdk like this

[TOPIC: post.html]
#75

Rob Miracle

[GLOBAL: userInfoPane.html]
Rob Miracle
  • Moderator

  • 26,681 posts
  • Enterprise

Very sad to hear.

 

Firstly, thank you to those individuals who have worked tirelessly to support Corona over the years. We've used it for much of our development since 2012 and have published nearly 20 apps via the platform over the years. It always seemed like an amazing deal... we pay $100 to remove the splash screen and get access to this awesome platform with no other costs apart from a few plugins.

 

Which is why I'm wondering if I'm missing something and the idea of charging a subscription to Corona users is something that's been explored in more depth? I would imagine anyone running a business based on publishing Corona-based apps would gladly pay a subscription to support continued development of the product? We certainly would.

 

All this leaves a lot of us with some tough choices to make and I'd welcome others' views on how they're looking to proceed.

 

The major concern for us is not so much new features being added (Corona already does more than enough for our current 2d development needs over the next few years) but support for any changes Apple and Google make meaning we could be in a position where we simply can't submit updates a year or two down the line with newer versions of Android or iOS.

 

I imagine most people reliant on Corona are looking at one of these three possibilities...

  • move away from Corona at this stage and invest in another platform (with no guarantee they don't go the same way)
  • go for purely native development and lose the multi-platform benefits of a single codebase
  • stick with Corona and hope someone takes it on in a more official capacity and commits to providing the support for any changes the various app stores make in the future

I'd be interested to know what other people's intentions are and whether anyone has any thoughts on other multi-platform solutions that seem robust / long term viable. For us, 2d game development with sqlite support, some kind of network api that allows loading and sending data to a remote server and the json, encryption and audio libraries are important. No ad requirements at all.

 

One question I have that someone who has used other platforms may be able to answer:

  • If we move to another platform, will we be able to publish updates to existing apps that can plug into the sqlite database that was shipped with the current version of the app built in Corona, so users don't lose progress built up over time?

Thanks again to everyone involved in making Corona so awesome. It will be hugely disappointing if it falls away altogether so anything we can do to help, we will do. In all my years of programming, there is not an environment I've more enjoyed developing in or found a more enthusiastic and friendly community around.

 

Count us in for financial support.

 

Which is why I'm wondering if I'm missing something and the idea of charging a subscription to Corona users is something that's been explored in more depth? I would imagine anyone running a business based on publishing Corona-based apps would gladly pay a subscription to support continued development of the product? We certainly would.

 

Patreon is basically a subscription service. Once that's setup we will see how may people sign up and at what level they are willing to support ongoing development. One nice benefit for this is Patreon will charge monthly, so coming up with larger annual sums will help. I've always wanted us to have a monthly plan. 

 

The major concern for us is not so much new features being added (Corona already does more than enough for our current 2d development needs over the next few years) but support for any changes Apple and Google make meaning we could be in a position where we simply can't submit updates a year or two down the line with newer versions of Android or iOS.

 

We are able to keep up with the changes now. 64-bit Android was quite a bit of a challenge. Swapping out the graphics engine will potentially be a sizable task, but the reason Apple is going away from OpenGL is that it's a dead project. It's not seen updates in quite a few years. Vulkan is the modern day OpenGL so it may not be that difficult because I think it's based on OpenGL But the point is we have been able to keep up and there is no reason we won't be able to, in particular if we get enough sponsorships. 

 

Rob


  • Michael Flad, horacebury, ray6 and 6 others like this


[topic_controls]
Page 3 of 14 1 2 3 4 5 »
 
[/topic_controls]